TIME: Almanac 1993/TIME Almanac 1993.iso/time/051391/0513510.000

Text File | 1992-08-28 | 7.6 KB | 192 lines

                                                                                INTERVIEW, Page 10

Hoping Saddam Hussein Would Just Go Away


President TURGUT OZAL, besieged by Iraqi refugees, supports the
American reluctance to overthrow the Baghdad regime and predicts
that it can't last for long

By DAVID AIKMAN/NEW YORK and TURGUT OZAL


    Q. Do you think America is doing enough to encourage
democracy in Iraq?

    A. It's a very difficult thing. It's what I call the edge
of the sword. Your country will be criticized if you try to
impose something, and Americans will oppose this. But if you do
not do anything, people will criticize that.

    I agree with President Bush. I would like to see another
leader -- another regime -- in Iraq.


    Q. You have said Saddam Hussein is a "wicked man." But
won't a policy of simply standing aside from the conflict allow
him to continue ruling?

    A. I don't see how he can stay. I mean, he could be
successful today or tomorrow, but not for long.


    Q. Should he be brought to trial?

    A. If there is going to be a decision, that should be
taken by the U.N. But the mandate was given to end his
aggression against Kuwait, not to remove him from power. If one
of your divisions took a bridge on the Euphrates River, and
didn't even go too far, maybe half the distance to Baghdad,
maybe President Saddam Hussein would flee. But I think that
would be a mistake, because in that case he might become a hero
to the Arabs. Let the Iraqi people make the decision. Whether
they are successful or not is another problem.


    Q. The Iranians have said they are not seeking to turn
southern Iraq, which is predominantly Shi`ite, into a separatist
state. Do you believe that?

    A. They would like to see the Shi`ite part of Iraq as
their own, but I don't think they will be able to accomplish it.


    Q. Given the chaos inside Iraq right now, what do you hope
to see emerge from this civil war?

    A. It's up to the Iraqis to decide. I would like to see a
more democratic government, more representative of different
groups in Iraq. The country is not a melting pot like the U.S.
or Turkey, where many people have come and formed one nation.
The human rights of different groups should first be established
very well. If a society is not democratic, then its people
cannot have freedom.


    Q. Is an increasingly politicized Islam a threat to
secular rule in Turkey?

    A. If a state is religious, with a name like Islamic
Republic and so forth, then there will be people there who want
to appear religious, but they are just pretending to be so. But
if your state is a secular one, then nobody can claim to be
religious unless he really is so. Comparing Turkey today with
many Arab countries, I think Turks are more religious. But this
does not mean they are fundamentalist. Dangers exist, but the
main point is that the problems are economic.


    Q. But what makes you think Turkey can withstand the
Islamic revolutionary anger that is affecting so many countries,
even quite advanced ones like Malaysia?

    A. I think Malaysia, economically, is richer than us. But
from the point of view of the experience of having a state,
Turkey is far richer. I say these other states should learn from
us, not we from them.

    Also there is a substantial difference between the living
conditions of Turkey today and in 1979. Turkey is not today in
a state of crisis. I mean, most Turks carry credit cards, like
Americans or Europeans. Some years ago, it was a sin to carry
a credit card or foreign exchange in your pocket. You would be
jailed for it. Now, I say, we have passed a certain point, and
we will not go back.


    Q. Do you consider Turkey a European country?

    A. Turkey is on a cultural fault line, where two cultures
mix. But in Ottoman times, Turkey was called "the sick man of
Europe," so that means we were considered then a European
country. Today Turkey is basically of Western orientation. We
have democracy, human rights and a free market. While 98% of the
population is Muslim, we are also a secular state. It's a good
example for the rest of the Islamic world. Turkey plays the role
of a bridge between Western and Islamic societies, and this
will become more important in the coming decades.


    Q. Does Turkey want to play a role in resolving the larger
Middle East crisis?

    A. I think Turkey should come out of isolation and play a
role. Our experience with economic reform in the past 10 to 11
years gives us this possibility, and also our experience in the
past 45 years of democracy.


    Q. But part of emerging from isolation is establishing
yourselves as full members of the community of civilized
nations. And when your application for membership to the
European Community is discussed in Brussels and Strasbourg, so
are two human rights issues: the use of torture and the lack of
free expression for religions other than Islam.

    A. Yes, I know. Turkey has a very old decree that
prohibits some books from being brought into the country. I tell
you, that decree was not signed by me. When I was Prime
Minister, I was trying to stop it. It requires education. We are
intending to remove those legal articles that relate to the
expression of ideas, freedom of thinking, which is so important
in the U.S. If you give a people a chance to search for new
horizons, they will probably do much better.


    Q. What is it about the U.S. that you feel other
countries, especially in the Middle East, may not grasp?

    A. They probably do not understand democracy. The system
of checks and balances, they don't understand this. For
example, when you discussed whether you should go to war in the
gulf or solve the issue with an embargo. I know everything can
be discussed in the U.S. But once you reach a conclusion,
probably a large number of people support it.


    Q. You have cumulatively spent, on and off since you were
19, more than five years in the U.S. What did you learn about
America and Americans?

    A. You are a free society, but you are also somewhat
limited. Take the pressures you were under when you prohibited
alcohol in the 1920s. This was unbelievable. But there is one
interesting fact: you contribute constantly to self-renewal.
This probably comes from the free expression of ideas, free
thinking. There is also free enterprise, the ability of people
to take risks. A man can even jump from Niagara Falls. I mean,
there is no difference between a man jumping, or making money,
or the astronauts going to the moon.


    Q. You are said to have an unusually close relationship
with President Bush. What is that like?

    A. I knew President Bush a long time ago, when he was Vice
President. Let me tell you, when President Bush was a candidate
against Dukakis, I was here, and I talked to him. I was hoping
he would win the election, because, at the beginning, some
writers said Bush was not as decisive as Reagan. But I didn't
see that.

    I think I have given him some advice. I think he probably
benefited, because we are very close to the gulf area, and I
also know the mentality of the American people.


    Q. What other world leaders have you respected as people
of integrity and intelligence?

    A. Mrs. Thatcher. I'll tell you very frankly, I was very
sorry she resigned. Before that, we were in Paris. She told me
that after 11 years of prime ministership, you have a lot of
enemies because the people who don't make Minister become your
enemies, and the people who were Ministers and are removed
become your enemies. I think she was right. I have the same
problem in Turkey.